Be warned. Josh Sybrowsky poses as a formulator with Carbon Manufacturing.
After 4 months with no formulation here is our email exchange as I ask for a refund:
Email 1: Request for Refund for Proprietary Stubble Formulation
Hi Josh,
I hope this email finds you well.
I've had a chance to fully digest our conversation from last Tuesday, February 2. Based on your insistence that you have not worked on the formulation and are not able to begin work on the formulation until I pay to have a mould made for the plastic applicator, we have arrived at an impasse. I am not comfortable paying $22,000 to have a mould made. Therefore, I hereby request that you refund to my credit card the $2850 retainer I paid to Carbon Manufacturing on Oct 9, 2020. Please refund this immediately as I need to urgently hire another formulator. Furthermore, please return to me any and all documentation and samples related to my product and permanently delete any information related to my product that is stored electronically. I also wish to remind you that all information related to my product is proprietary and was given to you as confidential information and accordingly I remind you that you are required to continue maintaining such information as confidential and are not allowed to disclose such information to anyone.
Thank you for understanding my situation.
Best,
Mike
Response from Josh: Mike, Apologies for the delayed reply, my email wasn't getting to me for a few days and I just saw this. A few things seem to have been misunderstood from our conversation:
1 - I've done work on the formulation and sourcing, a lot of work on it. You've had updates in the past on it, at no point in time did I say that I didn't start and a lot of conversion and emails state the opposite. I've provided ingredients and examples of how to make it work for you and reasoning in why the different methods of application change the results - which is why we kept talking about applications and why an applicator entered our discussions.
2 - We've had a lot of calls moving the project forward which is also work, these have been extensive conversations.
3 - You don't need to pay for a mold to move forward. You just need a method of application.
4 - You can have any formulation you want from me, however to make it of value to you I would need some type of definitive plan on what exactly you want this to be, and this is where we seem to be lost.
There have been many requests to have it done, but not a whole lot of definition on what it is that should be done - this is what has hampered the progress. As for your desire to move forward with another individual, it's probably a wise choice. The conversation I had with you and Lindsay was awkward and she seems to be steering you into a world that I've been tied into before and I don't want to be a part of. That's just not my crowd. The notion that all of the work done up to this point should be cancelled and refunded isn't a reasonable notion. My phone has logged 15.6 hours of conversation with you, in addition to emails and texts. I can also request the work logs from my staff and my logs - all of which will easily exceed the expectation of the original agreement. Furthermore what you paid was a retainer to start services, which we certainly did.
As nice of a guy as you are, this request for a refund robs me of all of the time I've spent on this project and the progress that was made. It isn't a fair request, if it's based off of a misunderstanding then I wish you'd communicated that to me on the phone, but this is another reason that makes me think that separating ways might be a wise move for both of us. So I accept your notification to move on from my services. In parting, what would you like from me? A list of the ingredients that can make this work in different applications? Be reasonable and specific and I'll send it right out to you. I've already indicated to you on previous conversations the difference between the types of formulations we can provide being based on the application methods used. I don't want you to feel that you didn't get what you paid for, but I'm not going to be unfair to myself either. The communication reminding my about agreements is unwarranted but noted.
Best of luck to you moving forward,
Josh
Email 2: Request for Refund for Proprietary Stubble Formulation
For discussion purposes only Hi
Josh,
Thank you for your response.
1. On our Tuesday 2 Feb call I asked you three times, because I was so shocked, "So nothing has been formulated because you have to develop an applicator 'in concert' (your words) with the formula?" Each time you said yes. Four months ago I sent you the sample with the applicators. There has never been any confusion about applicators or application. Four months ago I sent you a video of me applying the product with the applicators that work. A demo application video has also been live for the whole world to see for the past month on www.stuboi.com. You gave me acknowledgement of understanding all of this on Oct 13, 2020 when you stated in a text: "For emotional and fiscal validation reasons I should push you to do a mold before we start, cuz that's (stack of dollars emoji) for me. However, I'd rather see if we can start with something already out while we plan on the next phase and make money (stack of dollars emoji) gaining market validation while we figure out the most ideal applicator for version 2."
2. Over four months have passed since I paid you $2850. We spoke once or twice a month with me looking for any type of update on the proprietary stubble sealer spray formulation that would make the product both touch and water resistant. The majority of the time was spent with you sharing stories about other products, brainstorming other product ideas and other off-topic subjects. I enjoyed our calls, but they were never specific to developing the stubble sealer spray I had paid you to formulate. Three of the last calls were you making excuses about delays due to your website being revamped and a platform being created that my project would be loaded on to and then finally work would begin. This never happened.
3. I can no longer trust what you say. Again on Feb 2, 2021 you told me no formulation had been done because you needed $22k and would be the named inventor on the applicator you had to create in order to then create the formula. I'm not sure what you would have been sourcing given that no formulation had been created. I sourced all other components in the kit last fall. This feels like a bait and switch. I was shown another dissatisfied client's complaint with you that mirrors my experience - Rip Off Report
4. Per the contract, the formulation was to be done in 4 weeks. It is now over 4 months. You have been costing me potentially tens of thousand of dollars in lost sales from one delay and excuse after the next. You can see this in our text thread. We are in agreement that a clean break is the best. I have to let you know that the months of delays are costing me major lost revenue. At this juncture I do not believe you are a formulator. I believe that you are taking my ideas and IP to China to have them worked on where I do not have IP protection and that you will demonstrate any formulation as having been created by you. Please take this as formal notice that if I find my patent-pending stubble product formula, copyrighted IP, trademarks, my other patented products or anything we've discussed in the marketplace with your name attached directly or indirectly it will be considered willful infringement. Govern yourself accordingly. I await your response for quick resolution and the return of the $2850.
Sincerely,
Mike
Response from Josh:
Mike,
Refer to my previous email. I have told you many times about progress
we've done on formulation and things we tried. Each of our many calls
included options for making this product, packaging it, and applying it.
No final product has been done because no final form of the product or
final direction exists. I've spent a lot of time trying to coax that
direction out of you, I can't create a final version of an undefined
product. Our last call was discussing our bewilderment on how your
marketer didn't answer a single question, went on the attack the entire
call (which you thanked me for being professional and called it unfair
and embarrassing) and we were left with the introduction of eyelash
thickeners for men and women (already a packed market) and no direction
on your product.
Had you really been shocked on a phone call about something that has
been communicated to you on other occasions, one would have expected a
conversations on the topic matter, which is why we communicate by phone
in order to resolve issues. It's also why I put in a call to you after
I received your previous email this weekend. In any case the notion
that a phone call that lasted 1:45 left you with a fundamentally
confusing question is interesting to me - my notes on the call focused
on how things would go together for sales, styles and identity of your
brand. It was a very long call with you interested in expanding
business and doing more with me. This is all very inconsistent with
your current statement.
Furthermore, to make the final version, we'd certainly be well beyond
the retainer payment anyway. The starting payment to begin formulation
and conversations surrounding that is precisely what was paid and what
services were rendered to you. You are not owed any final formulation,
however I've offered you a formulation should that be something to make
you happy with the process.
I'm not going to waste your time nor mine discussing a bunch of what ifs
or what you think. I've done absolutely nothing wrong and will not be
replying to threats or accusations, that doesn't sound like you and it's
not going to get you anywhere good. It's abundantly clear who's behind
the attacks and who's coaching you along. That's your choice, but it's
nothing that bring any good to your project. I'm not going to engage on
that level.
Feel free to call me and discuss things to get a good resolution.
Please know that if you do call me I will spend no time nor effort in
convincing you to move forward with me in business. My sole hope is
that you move forward (without me) amicably, so my hand is extended but
it's up to you how this ends.
On what might be a final note, depending on if you choose to reply in
amicable fashion or not, I would recommend to you that you work on
definition of your product. It's a very broad idea currently, some
tests you've done work well, some haven't been well received. A few
parts of the concept that I gave you included adding a non Rx topical
minoxidil to the formulation and looking at bald spots - feel free to
use the ideas I've offered you (I don't care to have them back, as far
as I'm concerned they are yours because you paid for them), but somebody
needs to take charge of your product's identity and a full marketing
plan should be in place identifying who the target customer is, what
type of packaging fits the customer, what type of applicator is best for
these customers and the distribution models most fitting. You have a
brick and mortar retail store distributor representative, you have a way
to run marketing studies, but you need a marketer and to take charge of
the direction as the CEO.
Ball is in your court Mike. Give me a call or communicate to me via
email something fair that would make you satisfied moving forward.
Josh
Email 3: Request for Refund for Proprietary Stubble Formulation
Josh,
I have never seen any progress on the formulation. Again, we are now past 4 months. This is why I am requesting a complete refund. You have done a ton of talking, given months of excuses and told me that you're doing a lot of thinking, but nothing, not a single thing, has ever been produced. You are costing me tens of thousands of dollars due to your inability to produce. I am now confident that you are not a formulator, but pose as one. At this point I have to have everything in writing. To deny that you said on our Feb 2 call you have not done any formulation and in fact can't until you develop a proprietary applicator at a cost to me of $22,000 validates my inability to trust you. Telling me I wasn't shocked is insane. I was so shocked, I repeated it back to you three times to make sure I understood correctly. To get you off the phone immediately thereafter, I told you I had to sleep on it.
Yes, I have reviewed everything with Lindsey (who I had told you from start is handling all packaging, graphic design, etc.) as well as a handful of other trusted mentors. Everyone has concluded that although you acknowledged an understanding of scope of work and importance of proceeding with minimal financial risk initially (the scope of work is clearly defined in the Upwork job post) that you run a scam that includes the need to introduce expensive moulds and injection-moulded products and parts that must be made with you as the named inventor to be able to move the project forward. You took my very simple and concise job and tried to make it into something that it was never supposed to be, so you could gain financially from it.
It is clear we are at a total impasse. I will let you hash this out with my credit card company. Chase Ink is exceptional at guarding it's customers against fraud. I will also add this email thread to the Rip Off Report to warn others and file a complaint with the Better Business Bureau. It's unfortunate that you operate in this manner. My hope is that other inventors/product developers/entrepreneurs have a chance to see this and read my experience to BE WARNED with what working with Josh Sybrowsky and Carbon Manufacturing is like before they hire you. I wish I had seen the other report before hiring you. I definitely would have gone with one of the other qualified formulators I had interviewed and stayed within the safety of working in Upwork.com.
As stated previously, please take this as formal notice that if I find my patent-pending stubble product formula, copyrighted IP, trademarks, my other patented products or anything we've discussed in the marketplace with your name attached directly or indirectly it will be considered willful infringement. Govern yourself accordingly.
Carbon Manufacturing Reviews
Be warned. Josh Sybrowsky poses as a formulator with Carbon Manufacturing.
After 4 months with no formulation here is our email exchange as I ask for a refund:
Email 1: Request for Refund for Proprietary Stubble Formulation
Hi Josh,
I hope this email finds you well.
I've had a chance to fully digest our conversation from last Tuesday, February 2. Based on your insistence that you have not worked on the formulation and are not able to begin work on the formulation until I pay to have a mould made for the plastic applicator, we have arrived at an impasse. I am not comfortable paying $22,000 to have a mould made. Therefore, I hereby request that you refund to my credit card the $2850 retainer I paid to Carbon Manufacturing on Oct 9, 2020. Please refund this immediately as I need to urgently hire another formulator. Furthermore, please return to me any and all documentation and samples related to my product and permanently delete any information related to my product that is stored electronically. I also wish to remind you that all information related to my product is proprietary and was given to you as confidential information and accordingly I remind you that you are required to continue maintaining such information as confidential and are not allowed to disclose such information to anyone.
Thank you for understanding my situation.
Best,
Mike
Response from Josh: Mike, Apologies for the delayed reply, my email wasn't getting to me for a few days and I just saw this. A few things seem to have been misunderstood from our conversation:
1 - I've done work on the formulation and sourcing, a lot of work on it. You've had updates in the past on it, at no point in time did I say that I didn't start and a lot of conversion and emails state the opposite. I've provided ingredients and examples of how to make it work for you and reasoning in why the different methods of application change the results - which is why we kept talking about applications and why an applicator entered our discussions.
2 - We've had a lot of calls moving the project forward which is also work, these have been extensive conversations.
3 - You don't need to pay for a mold to move forward. You just need a method of application.
4 - You can have any formulation you want from me, however to make it of value to you I would need some type of definitive plan on what exactly you want this to be, and this is where we seem to be lost.
There have been many requests to have it done, but not a whole lot of definition on what it is that should be done - this is what has hampered the progress. As for your desire to move forward with another individual, it's probably a wise choice. The conversation I had with you and Lindsay was awkward and she seems to be steering you into a world that I've been tied into before and I don't want to be a part of. That's just not my crowd. The notion that all of the work done up to this point should be cancelled and refunded isn't a reasonable notion. My phone has logged 15.6 hours of conversation with you, in addition to emails and texts. I can also request the work logs from my staff and my logs - all of which will easily exceed the expectation of the original agreement. Furthermore what you paid was a retainer to start services, which we certainly did.
As nice of a guy as you are, this request for a refund robs me of all of the time I've spent on this project and the progress that was made. It isn't a fair request, if it's based off of a misunderstanding then I wish you'd communicated that to me on the phone, but this is another reason that makes me think that separating ways might be a wise move for both of us. So I accept your notification to move on from my services. In parting, what would you like from me? A list of the ingredients that can make this work in different applications? Be reasonable and specific and I'll send it right out to you. I've already indicated to you on previous conversations the difference between the types of formulations we can provide being based on the application methods used. I don't want you to feel that you didn't get what you paid for, but I'm not going to be unfair to myself either. The communication reminding my about agreements is unwarranted but noted.
Best of luck to you moving forward,
Josh
Email 2: Request for Refund for Proprietary Stubble Formulation
For discussion purposes only Hi
Josh,
Thank you for your response.
1. On our Tuesday 2 Feb call I asked you three times, because I was so shocked, "So nothing has been formulated because you have to develop an applicator 'in concert' (your words) with the formula?" Each time you said yes. Four months ago I sent you the sample with the applicators. There has never been any confusion about applicators or application. Four months ago I sent you a video of me applying the product with the applicators that work. A demo application video has also been live for the whole world to see for the past month on www.stuboi.com. You gave me acknowledgement of understanding all of this on Oct 13, 2020 when you stated in a text: "For emotional and fiscal validation reasons I should push you to do a mold before we start, cuz that's (stack of dollars emoji) for me. However, I'd rather see if we can start with something already out while we plan on the next phase and make money (stack of dollars emoji) gaining market validation while we figure out the most ideal applicator for version 2."
2. Over four months have passed since I paid you $2850. We spoke once or twice a month with me looking for any type of update on the proprietary stubble sealer spray formulation that would make the product both touch and water resistant. The majority of the time was spent with you sharing stories about other products, brainstorming other product ideas and other off-topic subjects. I enjoyed our calls, but they were never specific to developing the stubble sealer spray I had paid you to formulate. Three of the last calls were you making excuses about delays due to your website being revamped and a platform being created that my project would be loaded on to and then finally work would begin. This never happened.
3. I can no longer trust what you say. Again on Feb 2, 2021 you told me no formulation had been done because you needed $22k and would be the named inventor on the applicator you had to create in order to then create the formula. I'm not sure what you would have been sourcing given that no formulation had been created. I sourced all other components in the kit last fall. This feels like a bait and switch. I was shown another dissatisfied client's complaint with you that mirrors my experience - Rip Off Report
4. Per the contract, the formulation was to be done in 4 weeks. It is now over 4 months. You have been costing me potentially tens of thousand of dollars in lost sales from one delay and excuse after the next. You can see this in our text thread. We are in agreement that a clean break is the best. I have to let you know that the months of delays are costing me major lost revenue. At this juncture I do not believe you are a formulator. I believe that you are taking my ideas and IP to China to have them worked on where I do not have IP protection and that you will demonstrate any formulation as having been created by you. Please take this as formal notice that if I find my patent-pending stubble product formula, copyrighted IP, trademarks, my other patented products or anything we've discussed in the marketplace with your name attached directly or indirectly it will be considered willful infringement. Govern yourself accordingly. I await your response for quick resolution and the return of the $2850.
Sincerely,
Mike
Response from Josh:
Mike,
Refer to my previous email. I have told you many times about progress
we've done on formulation and things we tried. Each of our many calls
included options for making this product, packaging it, and applying it.
No final product has been done because no final form of the product or
final direction exists. I've spent a lot of time trying to coax that
direction out of you, I can't create a final version of an undefined
product. Our last call was discussing our bewilderment on how your
marketer didn't answer a single question, went on the attack the entire
call (which you thanked me for being professional and called it unfair
and embarrassing) and we were left with the introduction of eyelash
thickeners for men and women (already a packed market) and no direction
on your product.
Had you really been shocked on a phone call about something that has
been communicated to you on other occasions, one would have expected a
conversations on the topic matter, which is why we communicate by phone
in order to resolve issues. It's also why I put in a call to you after
I received your previous email this weekend. In any case the notion
that a phone call that lasted 1:45 left you with a fundamentally
confusing question is interesting to me - my notes on the call focused
on how things would go together for sales, styles and identity of your
brand. It was a very long call with you interested in expanding
business and doing more with me. This is all very inconsistent with
your current statement.
Furthermore, to make the final version, we'd certainly be well beyond
the retainer payment anyway. The starting payment to begin formulation
and conversations surrounding that is precisely what was paid and what
services were rendered to you. You are not owed any final formulation,
however I've offered you a formulation should that be something to make
you happy with the process.
I'm not going to waste your time nor mine discussing a bunch of what ifs
or what you think. I've done absolutely nothing wrong and will not be
replying to threats or accusations, that doesn't sound like you and it's
not going to get you anywhere good. It's abundantly clear who's behind
the attacks and who's coaching you along. That's your choice, but it's
nothing that bring any good to your project. I'm not going to engage on
that level.
Feel free to call me and discuss things to get a good resolution.
Please know that if you do call me I will spend no time nor effort in
convincing you to move forward with me in business. My sole hope is
that you move forward (without me) amicably, so my hand is extended but
it's up to you how this ends.
On what might be a final note, depending on if you choose to reply in
amicable fashion or not, I would recommend to you that you work on
definition of your product. It's a very broad idea currently, some
tests you've done work well, some haven't been well received. A few
parts of the concept that I gave you included adding a non Rx topical
minoxidil to the formulation and looking at bald spots - feel free to
use the ideas I've offered you (I don't care to have them back, as far
as I'm concerned they are yours because you paid for them), but somebody
needs to take charge of your product's identity and a full marketing
plan should be in place identifying who the target customer is, what
type of packaging fits the customer, what type of applicator is best for
these customers and the distribution models most fitting. You have a
brick and mortar retail store distributor representative, you have a way
to run marketing studies, but you need a marketer and to take charge of
the direction as the CEO.
Ball is in your court Mike. Give me a call or communicate to me via
email something fair that would make you satisfied moving forward.
Josh
Email 3: Request for Refund for Proprietary Stubble Formulation
Josh,
I have never seen any progress on the formulation. Again, we are now past 4 months. This is why I am requesting a complete refund. You have done a ton of talking, given months of excuses and told me that you're doing a lot of thinking, but nothing, not a single thing, has ever been produced. You are costing me tens of thousands of dollars due to your inability to produce. I am now confident that you are not a formulator, but pose as one. At this point I have to have everything in writing. To deny that you said on our Feb 2 call you have not done any formulation and in fact can't until you develop a proprietary applicator at a cost to me of $22,000 validates my inability to trust you. Telling me I wasn't shocked is insane. I was so shocked, I repeated it back to you three times to make sure I understood correctly. To get you off the phone immediately thereafter, I told you I had to sleep on it.
Yes, I have reviewed everything with Lindsey (who I had told you from start is handling all packaging, graphic design, etc.) as well as a handful of other trusted mentors. Everyone has concluded that although you acknowledged an understanding of scope of work and importance of proceeding with minimal financial risk initially (the scope of work is clearly defined in the Upwork job post) that you run a scam that includes the need to introduce expensive moulds and injection-moulded products and parts that must be made with you as the named inventor to be able to move the project forward. You took my very simple and concise job and tried to make it into something that it was never supposed to be, so you could gain financially from it.
It is clear we are at a total impasse. I will let you hash this out with my credit card company. Chase Ink is exceptional at guarding it's customers against fraud. I will also add this email thread to the Rip Off Report to warn others and file a complaint with the Better Business Bureau. It's unfortunate that you operate in this manner. My hope is that other inventors/product developers/entrepreneurs have a chance to see this and read my experience to BE WARNED with what working with Josh Sybrowsky and Carbon Manufacturing is like before they hire you. I wish I had seen the other report before hiring you. I definitely would have gone with one of the other qualified formulators I had interviewed and stayed within the safety of working in Upwork.com.
As stated previously, please take this as formal notice that if I find my patent-pending stubble product formula, copyrighted IP, trademarks, my other patented products or anything we've discussed in the marketplace with your name attached directly or indirectly it will be considered willful infringement. Govern yourself accordingly.
Sincerely,
Mike